I realised a very fascinating difference in how "Yuri" from "Beware the villainess" and "Helena" from "Kill the villainess" is treated, and technically speaking, they're in very similar positions.
Yuri never makes an actual move until she's built up courage to tell the prince "No" and Helena hasn't yet done anything of the sort, since updates are slower and Yuri only does that near the end of the first season (I think). The person who does all those things for her is Melissa. Yuri never voices it, only implies it through expressions and they use that to highlight how stupid the male leads are for not noticing that she doesn't like them.
The Male Leads in "Beware the villainess" are stupid, spectacularly unaware of their surrounding and the people they spend time with and selfish. The Male Leads in "Kill the villainess" (specifically the crown prince) are similar, but with a bit more of a darker tone because the prince has an undertone of power and power without intelligence is genuinely frightening.
They're both in a situation where men dominate their lives and would rather that it didn't happen. You might argue that Helena doesn't actually mind and agrees with how the prince treats Eris, but I disagree. When you're in such a situation, like Helena is, but it's highly unlikely that you'll actually have the strength to stand up to them. Even just in expression when spending time with them. The crown prince has a lot of power and it seems like the king just never interfered at all. He never decided to give Helena an option to leave safely and the Empress actually goes out of her way to encourage the behaviour.
A lot of people don't like Helena because she's inactive an very passive, but I don't think that the way she is is really supposed to be liked?
More pitied if anything else. With the hope that she changes. She's been abused since she was a kid and people who have been harassed by men who think they own them and technically almost do due to the power they have over her. She's not even actually liked by any of them. The Prince only uses her as a way to get back at Eris for god knows what reason, and the prince never actually seems to like Helena. She knows that to an extent. But I think her mind has (in a way) glossed over it in an attempt to justify it to herself.
Disclaimer, By no means do I think Helena is morally Good character or particularly interesting as she is now. Y'all confuse "likeability" with "interest" and we're going to have some problems.
I think Helena is an Interesting character, but if she stays the way she is now, I'll just get bored of her and probably the entire comic eventually. Helena in my expectation is supposed to be someone who Changes and becomes better. Like Yuri being saved by Melissa until she garners courage to refuse the prince. She's supposed to change and learn to stand up for herself despite not having any social standing whatsoever.
I do not understand people who think that Helena's pride and morality is the only thing on the line when she interacts with the prince (and to be frank, a lot of the male characters on there). That's not true. If you've ever been harassed by someone who has power over your life, you'd know that's not true. She has her job, her social status (which would affect her being hired in the future) and what's worse, the prince might actually go after her if he's given the opportunity (and since he's the prince, he has ALL the opportunity).
And by no means am I saying that Yuri is the exact same as Helena. They developed differently. Melissa and Yuri immediately hit it off and became pretty good friends, Yuri was always more expressive (most likely because she realised that the MLs were too stupid to notice her expressions) and because she's been in a constant loop of relieving the life. Helena doesn't have that. She doesn't have Eris constantly trying to protect her, her childhood is different, practically everything about them is different except for the fact that men control their lives.
I think a lot of comics where the FL is supposed to be strong, often has sexism and men be the antagonists/problem to overcome. I don't think "Kill the villainess" and "beware the villainess" is any different. Men are supposed to be held accountable for the stuff they do, and in both comics, the FLs are the only ones who can seemingly do that. Eris just doesn't have that much of an interest in it, but it seems like that's the direction it's going in naturally. She clashes with the MLs even when they try to be accommodating because they think little of her personality, whether it's consciously or unconsciously.
exactly.;;
(btw if you want to open up a discussion about a specific manga, you should ask a question on the sharing page instead so that it's not considered as a spam by mangago)
oh, sorry, thank you for letting me know!
https://archiveofourown.org/works/17182217
Summary: Emotional tension and perceived equality on the readers' side.
People complain a lot about shippers but I think what they do is relatively harmless, unless it's directed at real people.
yes it is harmless but i feel like its more of a matter of preference more than anything. others like to look at characters interacting in a non-romantic (only friendly) way rather than have them associated w each other. this also brings the fact that shippers overanalyze every single detail to the point that they think the whole show revolves around their ship. maybe not all shippers are like this but i understand why ppl hate them and find them annoying tbh.
Those ships aren't exactly harmless, since sangwoo and Bum's relationship was terrible and abusive and Ciel is a literal child??
I don't mind shipping, since when done with common sense, it's literally harmless. They're not really shipping the characters (when it comes to shipping they're rarely ever shipping the actual characters) but an idea of a relationship.
What I meant was people shipping characters that have actual romantic potential without becoming toxic and emotional chemistry. I think it's harmless fun and people complaining about it doesn't make sense to me.
I mean. I guess that's fair?
I personally think it's more of a matter of the author not fully understanding the character's potential since a lot of shonen series have the female love interest and the male lead ending up together and completely ignoring the best friend when we've hardly seen an interaction between the girl and the boy and it's the age old usage of "girl meets boy" instead of making any actual emotional attatchment between the two characters other than "She's my designated love interest and so I'm obligated to get mad if she gets hurt" which honestly makes everyone hate the relationship and possibly even the girl.
I don't mind if the author doesn't ever have a relationship happen between two male characters, and that's usually not what people want. There are people who complain about two guy characters when one or both of them are bad people or just not a good match for each other. But what makes me annoyed more than fangirls shipping is when an author cannot thinks that just because their plot might be interesting, it means they can neglect their character development and interactions.
Essentially what I'm saying is that if you write a good story with good characters and you don't ignore things and actually make things inclusive and such, you're probably not going to get people sho ship things intensely and overanalyse interactions.
Also, people overanaylse interactions because the smaller actions are usually subconsious. People rarely blush when they're in front of their actual crush, and they can show closeness by 'brief lingering touches' and 'smiles' and literally almost dying for someone.
People can excuse that for friendship, but honestly, I don't think I'd die for a friend I knew for a few months or so. Even a friend I knew for a year or few.
Don’t mind me just following this thread coz this is interesting (=・ω・=)
The article is also interesting! it outlines all the points i'm trying to make (albeit, I'm not sure if I'm making them that well) but it uses examples in media (especially anime) and it's very insightful!
It might me better if you just read the article instead of following the thread, since it would probably be far more informative than anything here.
If someone has broken community guidelines, report them, or just ignore them.
Literally no reason to answer them.
Please, stop engaging with people who are vying for your attention and just report them if you're so unhappy with the content they post.
They're trolls, they're not going to change their opinion, they just want to argue.
On the other hand, if you're just having a bit of fun, then sure.
But don't reply to them with the belief that you're going to change their opinion on whatever topic they decided to talk about.
They targeted asians and koreaboos and the gays because some people already dislike them and they're a majority on this site.
Stop being baited by them, and if they reply to your Question, ignore them, or give them a downvote at most.
ah thank you for pointing this out! ah i agree-
The report button should be on the bottom right hand side of the end of the question
Oh, oof, maybe reload the page?
I know. It's so sad and depressing. I have no life, just fucking shoot me, please.
If you tried to hit me, I'm sure my bones would just crack like a glowstick I'd like it if you didn't find my adress, but I suppose I'm to weak to stop you. I am also, indeed a bitch.
Thank you.
No, thank You for explaining things in such simple terms.
I am glad to finally be vaguely knowledgeable of your mind, but I also would like to say that I actually meant that you were so strong and the constant abuse from my mother has left me weak due to my bones being unable to tell if they were even originally broken anymore.
But I understand your confusion. After all, I too was confused until I saw God.
Oh, I meant Hitler. But he isn't really a God, merely a stepping stone.
One day, humanity will be destroyed and the world will be right once more.
But of course, I suppose Donald Trump is impressive in his own right.
After all, there is most likely almost no one else Satan will want more on earth right now, but who knows.
Who cares? I'm bored of you now, so buh bye!
Haji is an amazing BL manga artist, please check out their work!
Can I have a link for one of his/her manga?
this: http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/red_hood/ and others i think?
Thank you very much
Trigger warning: mentions of rape and paedophilia.
Hello, I love and respect you all. I am a part of the BL community too.
But please.
Please.
Don't attack or complain to people who don't like the manga for a touchy topic. Like misrepresentation of a culture or theme or whatever. Or because it has rape scenes portrayed positively. Or because it portrays paedophilia in a romantic light.
Just because it's fictional, doesn't mean they have to be comfortable with it.
I am a minor. I am also paranoid. I feel terrified by the idea of an older person trying to pressure me into sex. I don't like the idea of someone jumping me and a flail uselessly because I'm physically weak.
I hate it and I'm allowed to be uncomfortable with the subject.
You cannot shame me by complaining that "oh, it's fake, so you shouldn't dislike it, or drop it." Or, " You're being sensitive, it's not even real".
Yeah. I know it's not real. But as someone who reads fiction on a daily basis, even if it's not real, I can still not like it.
This doesn't mean you can't enjoy BL with rape scenes or BL with paedophilia. I just want you to stop getting so touchy when someone doesn't like a certain BL because it has sensitive themes that aren't handled well, or misrepresentations of a subject that they could care a lot about.
Trigger warning: mentions of rape and paedophilia.
oh-thank you for making this clear and I agree with you because I feel the same when it comes to yaoi that I can't/can not handle.
You're welcome!! I've never liked it when people complain to others who dropped a certain bl for it's lack of consent and it's definitely something that needed to be said clearly and concisely.
I agree! And you're welcome! I feel like if it hadn't been said, people would go on to complain about it and keep shaming others into feeling bad about dropping or disliking certain BL.
No. Their basially don't bash on people that don't agree with your tastes or opinions. ╮(￣▽￣)╭
*basically saying*
You are allowed to read and enjoy rape scenes and shota! Like bdsm and other fantasies, it can be a kink. Having rape fantasies/play and such are also fine.
But that's where I draw the line.
If you prey on a minor oran adult who has never given you consent, that's upsetting and disgusting. Certain mangas can portray that in a positive light. I myself don't enjoy it, but if you do, that's fine as long as we are all aware it is fiction. And should never be idolised/romanticised in real life situations.
And people who attack those who read shota or rape usually attack them because they don't like it or they've had bad experiences and they're sensitive to such things. I understand why, but I don't support them. On the other hand the percentage of people I've seen shaming others for not liking BL because it holds sensitive content or has portrayed an unhealthy relationship in a romantic light is much higher.
On the grounds of attacking people, I feel like you're taking this out on the wrong person.
I've rarely, if never, seen someone be aggressive towards someone who liked shota/rape BL on the grounds that they like the BL. It's usually because they make an accompanying statement like: "besides, it's not doing any harm" or they try and victim blame the character for not saying 'no' and letting it happen.
On the other hand, I've seen far more people shame someone because they weren't comfortable with the content. I felt that was more important to address because it is a bigger problem. Of course, I might be biased since I don't really explore rape manga, and whenever I do, the comment section is sometimes... Not the best. On top of that, the ones that attack those who don't like the BL usually just say things like "I'm not comfortable with this because it has rape scenes, so I'm dropping it." And then people comment that they're wrong for dropping something they didn't enjoy. Would you rather that they kept reading something they didn't like? I don't see the goal here.
If you have been attacked by someone who was claiming that it was uncomfortable for them, and therefore should be uncomfortable for you, feel free to use the "it's fiction, I'm allowed to like it. I'm aware that you might not be comfortable with it, but I like it. I'm aware that (subject) in real life might be wrong, but again, this is fiction. It's okay to like what I like and it okay for you to not like it." Line. It both simultaneously reassures the other that you're aware that it's fiction and it defends your preferences.
Anyway, I will repeat: Y'all can have your kinks. I don't care. But don't shame others because they don't like it or because they do. As long as we're all clear that it isn't real, and shouldn't ever be real, who gives a frick if you like it or don't?
I agree!
Yep! Also if people really are complaining about your preferences a lot, then I feel it comes from a place of insecurity, like they're uncomfortable because they also like it but they've been yelled at for doing so, so they're yelling at others because they've been shamed for their preferences. I might be wrong however, and it could just be a case of the more modern term of a social justice warrior. If they're rwally getting on your nerves and they're actually being rude without a valid reason, you can report or block them or just flat out ignore them so you don't see any of their comments.
Anyway, I hope you have a good day!
Pedophilia is illegal even in art im like 90% sure.
In the US, courts often point to the Miller test when evaluating whether material is obscene or not. I'm paraphrasing, but the Miller test essentially says that a work may be considered obscene if:
It appears to appeal to the prurient interest (i.e. it's used for sexual gratification), and
The work depicts or describes sexual/excretory activity in a very offensive way, and
The work lacks literary, artistic, political, or scientific value
found this on reddit about Boku no pico
https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/7kjx3w/is_shotacon_porn_such_as_boko_no_pico_legal_in/
I mean, yeah but people still portray it (like harada) and ngl, I love harada's work because it's upsetting, but it knows it's upsetting and leans into the concept of trauma and psychological effects from events in their life.
On the other hand, we just have people romanticising paedophilia irl and I don't like it. Liking paedophilic content is illegal, you are a paedophile, please stop. Get some therapy. I've heard it helps and they're unlikely to judge you.
But I don't think that a shota kink necessarily means that you're sexually/romantically attracted to children, more so that you think they're cute? Like: " Awwww they're adorable" type of thing and it's not really applied to people in real life either. It seems to specifically be an anime/fictional thing? I'm not sure. I don't know anyone who's a shota, and I myself am not, so I feel like I don't really have any authority to speak about it.
A lot of BL that contains paedophilia explores the trauma of it and how it's dark and grooming and all of that, so I'm not entirely sure it would be considered obscene.
I'll use Harada's works as an example.
Yes It has a lot of scenes that I think could be sexually arousing, but more than that their art when drawing rape scenes and such is distinctly different to me. It often has an unsettling black/stark white contrast or an uncomfortable atmostphere to it that indicates that you're not supposed to be aroused by it at all. I think a lot of their work isn't really for arousal but the sex scenes and rape scenes add to the plot or it just happens.
I don't speak for others, but I doubt that harada's work was supposed to be sexy or anything of the sort.
A lot of Harada's work has sexual activity but I don't think it's offensive. It has sensitive content but a lot of their work contains interesting characters and plot more than it does sex. Thee sex scenes aren't something useless either. I feel that their work that already contains sex scenes wouldn't work as well, if at all, without them.
The work lacks literary, artistic, political, or scientific value
i think that's what that means. Either way i'm gonna judge you if you are a pedophile that sees nothing wrong with their kink but if you don't sexually touch children i'm just gonna avoid you and wish you luck on getting help.
I'm also gonna mention that even though i read yaoi, I'm not sexually attracted to gay men/ real gay porn so this may also apply to some people that watch/read Shota and i only really have a problem if youre sexualizing real children.
I don't know what kinks Harada's work has? Also paedophilia is bad, I thought we established this??
Also I disagree that Harada's work lacks artistic/political value because it's very small, yes but I still think it's artistic and philosophical almost.
I agree! But I think that unless you're genuinely reading BL for the plot, you're attracted to some aspect of the content you consume.
And hardly anyone reads BL for the plot.
Yeah, you might not be attracted to gay men, but a lot of the men in BL are something like ikemen and I feel like that's something that was done on purpose.
That's what i mean. Harada's work has artistic/political value and im actually interested in checking their work out now. I also agree paedophilia is 100% bad.
Definitely. I'm not exactly sure why i like yaoi i've never had and still have no interest in gay porn (which is probably made up of 99% attractive porn actors if it's anything like straight porn) but that is an entirely different conversation.
If someone replies to your comment on a manga saying "Then don't read this manga," just say to them: "Then don't read my comment" haha
Okay, so if someone posts something homophobic why don't we just report them? It's content that insults an entire group of people, so I don't really see the problem with getting their comment taken down.
I don't understand and lots of people have complained, so why not? I'm not entirely sure why people aren't and I was thinking that there must be a reason, so I didn't. Isn't it better to just get rid of their comment?
Anyways, does anyone know any cute mangas? I don't mind bl, yuri or het, I just want something cute and wholesome.
i reported them immediately after i saw that post.
Oh, ok so they just didn't take it down?
Jesus. Alright.
If they did, thank you if they didn't then I don't know what to say.
- http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/umibe_no_etranger/
- http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/doridosim/?P9pF
- http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/blue_blue_blue/
- http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/secret_one_room/
- http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/ganbare_nakamura_kun/
- http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/harenochi_shikibu/
- http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/our_relationship_is/?Irn7
- http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/our_relationship_is/?Irn7
- http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/mobile_sweet_honey/
- http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/mayoke_no_darling/
- http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/what_she_likes_are_homos_and_not_me/ i just think this one is cute
i think it might take some time? they might have not seen the reports yet. idk how closely they monitor and moderate this site.
i think they're just consumed into religious belief and confused on the justification of their foundations so they're being really passive aggressive with their comment. it happens a lot to people raised in conservative communities.
Thank you for the recs! I needed some wholesome content!
Makes sense, but still mega worried.
Yeah, I know but it has no sense of logic. Or if it does, then it's essentially said: "Gay people have to 'accept' that they're abnormal and do abnormal things" which, can I just say, sounds very dumb??
Like what, the "The gays have to eat air because they don't eat food like normal people"??
Of course they eat food like everyone else?? They need to consume nutrients to do stuff??
It's confusing to me, as someone who hasn't been faced with any phobia directly and has been stuffed in the closet like a rag doll for being nonbinary and ace that people like me are seen as different when I cannot name a single thing that makes me different from anyone else.
I sincerely do not understand that sentiment. If you're just outright saying that you don't like gay people and you do in fact have something against then then I would be much more willing to accept that, than a half-hearted attempt and seeming like they're not terrified of the gays. I wouldn't agree with it or be happy with it, but it would be the first step into me vaguely understanding where you're coming from.
Sorry, I'm just really stressed. With everything happening. Our prime minister is terrible and I'm going to have mental breakdown from stress and I just want everyone to have human rights.
Is that too much to ask?
I know that you're probably really frustrated with their answer but I'll say this as a bisexual male that hasn't come out of the closet and is constantly surrounded by conservative christians and homophobic people. There are a lot of people that are super oblivious or confused by their religion's or community's beliefs. Often times people who have had good but minimal contact with the LGBT community. They're raised with an ideology and trust their community but they get confused when that ideology doesn't line up with their experience. Because of this their questions directed towards the LGBT community are confusing, passive-aggressive or sometimes line up with the homophobic ideology they were raised with while still trying to be "respectful".
All I'm saying basically is to not hate on these people. They don't fully understand and have difficulty comprehending something that they haven't experienced before. All we can do is try to convince them to understand our emotions. I used to be like you where I got angry and depressed about these messages surrounding me about the LGBT community, but when its your family and friends saying shit like this you learn they're not bad people but just malinformed.
also! here are some wholesome recs!
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/atarashii_joushi_wa_dotennen/
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/roujoteki_shoujo_hinata_chan/
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/fushigi_neko_no_kyuu_chan/
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/southern_bird_and_northern_bird/
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/toorigakari_ni_one_point_advice_shiteiku_type_no_yankee/
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/spy_x_family/
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/a_b/
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/the_story_of_a_yakuza_boss_reborn_as_a_little_girl/
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/ojisama_to_neko/
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/mr_villain_s_day_off/
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/satoko_nada/
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/the_magical_girl_and_evil_officer/
It’s because of religion and their beliefs.... I understand them ( it’s because I raised from a very conservative and religious family)
Yeah, I know but still.
I guess I just fell into the trap of having high expectations? Since the topic of sexuality doesn't come up that often and having contact with a lot of lgbt+ people probably made me forget about the fact that homophobic people still exist.
I don't accept them, but I understand them. I just find it annoying when they deny that they're homophobic yet say homophobic things. I just don't want to have to see or deal with them, but I'll have to, so I guess your approach makes a lot more sense and will probably wear me out less than constantly burning anger and dissapointment.
Thanks!
I was as well, but whilst I can tolerate it (barely) I'm still going to try to change their views. What they're doing is wrong regardless of what they were raised to believe. It's like if someone was raised to believe that the colour green was purple. It's going to be difficult to explain to them and it's annoying as all heck, but that doesn't mean that I'm just going to let them believe something wrong forever.
I care about them despite the beliefs they hold and I desperately want them to understand that I am not strange in any way. I want them to see me as a person, someone worth caring about.
The fact that "it's because of their religion and beliefs" shouldn't be used as an excuse, but a reason. We should help them understand that we aren't different or strange and we're like everyone else.
off topic but how do i report a manga? like i'm seeing cp supporters latching on to "omg so cute! yaois for shota and adult who could be his dad aged lover!! kyaa so sugoiii~!!" and bro. I don't care, it's pro-cp and i'd like to get the manga reported.
If you look to the bottom right of the comment, there should be a 'report' button in light blue. Sort of like youtube 'report' buttons.
it doesn't show up in the comment chain tho which is what i'm tying to find. does it have to be the original comment?
I think it doesn't show up in replies, but the original comments and if you delete the original comment then all the replies get deleted.
i see, ty you though! this really helped me out!
It's a comic where this man can see spirits and such, he has light greyish whiteish hair (I think, although I could be wrong) and he travels around. I can't remember much more than that since I've hadn't read it in so long, but it was a Japanese manga and I think it's name was also japanese.
I think it was set in an historical japan, but it was most certainly fantasy
I think you're talking about "Mushishi"
https://www.mangago.me/read-manga/mushishi/
OH MY GOD YES THANK YOU SO MUCH
Thank you,, so so much